Tuesday, March 13, 2007
Ten questions with Joe Navarro
You've seen him on ESPN.com before, and you'll see him again. Retired FBI agent Joe Navarro has taken his love of interrogation to another playing field: the poker table. Navarro's "interview" techniques have allowed him to predict the actions of even the toughest pros at the table.
So here's a taste of a conversation that Joe and I had recently. With the wisdom he passes on in Ten Questions, hopefully you'll see more tells the next time you're sitting at the table.
Feldman: Let's start easy Joe. Say it's the first day of the WSOP main event and you're seated at a table with one of the world's top players. What do you recommend I do?
Navarro: The tells that I discuss in my book, "Read 'Em and Reap" apply equally to the seasoned pro as they do to the amateur. However, there's a lot to think about when you're playing a big pot with a top player, and you may not pick them up too quickly. The most important thing to do is conceal your own tells, as your opponent is probably an expert at detecting your strength or weakness. Focus your attention on giving off as little information as possible.
Feldman: Your book says the feet are the most honest part of your body. How do you spot feet tells from an opponent sitting far across the table from you?
Navarro: You are correct in that it's often hard to see your opponents' feet, unless they are sitting immediately to your left or to your right. However, when a player has "happy feet" it is often blatantly noticeable in their clothing, arms and shoulders, which move and ripple as a result of their feet moving. But be careful -- some people always have "happy feet."
Also, when players move their feet from a flat position to a "starters position," their body tends to lean forward, as in "I am ready to pounce on you" forward. Like all tells, it's important to note the player's baseline behavior to know the accuracy of a specific tell.
Feldman: How often do you spot tells from world-class players on televised poker tournaments? Do you use this material as research?
Navarro: This will come as a surprise to most, but I spot them all the time on TV. In fact, television has made my job really easy. With few exceptions, most people have very obvious tells, if you know what to look for. When sitting around with friends, I sometimes find myself yelling at the television set, "Can you believe what he is doing?"
Feldman: Most people respond with, "No," I'd guess.
Navarro: As my reputation has grown, thanks to Annie Duke and Phil Hellmuth, other world-class poker players have hired me to work with them and isolate their tells so that they can conceal better. Incidentally, when I work with professionals, I work on enhancing their observation skills and in concealing, not revealing -- not in giving them the tells of other players.
Feldman: A lot of players converse with their opponents during big hands to gain a little more insight. How do you feel about this? Should you stay quiet? Obviously your focus is on nonverbal tells, but …
Navarro: Players like Daniel Negreanu will attempt to speak to you during stressful situations. They want to see how you respond and how comfortable you feel. Very few players are skilled enough to give a verbal response and control their emotions sufficiently. If you find yourself in this situation, you have no obligation to respond. While it makes for great television, you may be giving off more than you think. Avoid the verbal probes, keep your eyes on the table and don't engage.
Feldman: How much of a similarity is there between interviewing terrorist suspects and detecting poker tells at the table?
Navarro: There's a huge similarity that stems from the fact that both subjects being observed are under a great deal of stress while they're being observed. A terrorist suspect, whether guilty or innocent, is feeling a lot of heat from his situation and my questioning. The same goes for a poker player in a large pot. When the human brain is under stress, it causes the body to behave in predictable and noticeable patterns. The limbic brain deals with stress or threats fairly much the same way [for either situation], so the behaviors "freeze, flight, fight, pacify" will always show up.
Feldman: What's your opinion on the existence of online poker tells?
Navarro: As an observer, my strengths would be neutralized online as the subject/opponent cannot be observed in person. Although I have it on good authority that there are tells online, these have more to do with betting patterns and the speed at which a player responds. This is an area where there is no research and it's based on anecdotal evidence from players who have been successful.
Feldman: There's great debate on whether players should be allowed to wear sunglasses at the poker table. What are your thoughts?
Navarro: Get a pair! Sunglasses are a way to not only conceal your own tells, but a way to observe other players without them knowing that you're watching. A player's behavior can change if they know they're being observed, so sunglasses definitely help. It adds a degree of intimidation. As long as it's legal to wear sunglasses at the table, I can't think of any reasons not to. Do what's most comfortable for you and what you feel will help you the most. Remember though that sunglasses can cut down on visual acuity, so you may miss some tells.
Feldman: You are giving a lecture at the WSOP Academy Ladies Only poker camp that is targeted toward specific tells from women. Can you give us an example?
Navarro: Women react to stress differently than men. As a result, they exhibit tells that are unique. An example would be touching what's called the supra-sternal notch, or the neck dimple, located right below the Adam's Apple area. Under stress, women will protect and pacify themselves in this area. They fidget less with their feet and more with their hands.
At the lecture, we will also cover topics including how to cope with male aggression at the poker table and use it to their advantage. We will also cover ways to bluff better by using false high confidence displays.
Feldman: It takes a lot to become an expert in nonverbal behavior. Is it worth it at the poker table?
Navarro: The short answer is yes. Not only will it help you at the poker table, it will help you in all aspects of life, including relationships, work, with your children, etc. Many of my students write me to tell me that practicing reading people at the table helps alleviate the periods of boredom often associated with tournament poker, as it gives them something to focus on. It has contributed to their job performance and has enriched their social life. In particular, doctors have reported to me that they use this information with their patients to read and understand them better. Reading people is something you can use every waking minute of your day.
If you don't have the discipline or the desire to learn how to decode nonverbal behavior, at least spend the time to learn how to conceal your own tells. Videotape yourself, you will be amazed at how much each of us leaks. This will make you harder to read and save you a lot of money.
Feldman: You've got your own seminar now. What can players learn from your "Read 'Em and Reap" seminar that they can't learn from reading your book?
Navarro: A lot! We cover a lot of the material that's contained in the book, but we cover it in much greater detail and with examples where you can see the tells in action. I also cover a lot of material that isn't found in the book. The research on nonverbal behavior continues to be published on a quarterly basis. Remember, the book is a contribution to the literature on nonverbals, this is an area that is not static. At my seminar I cover all the new things that have been discovered and researched and have yet to be discussed in the poker realm. Also, when we head down to the poker room to practice what we've learned, I spend a lot of time working with players individually, spotting tells that the students are giving off. This type of personalized attention can save a player a lot of money in the long run.
Learn more about Joe Navarro by heading to NavarroPoker.com or WSOP Academy.com
